Yung: What’s up Doujins Army? I’ve got something a little special for you all tonight: a returning guest, the one and only Ivan Aedler! The last time we had had the pleasure of chatting to Ivan, Kasaix spoke to him about Peach’s Untold Tale, the hentai game he’s been working on since 2011. You may have seen PUT mentioned around the internet recently as even mainstream sites are reporting about how Nintendo issued a DMCA takedown, removing it from the Github page where it was previously free to download.
Those other sites hardly ever get the full picture, so let’s welcome the man himself to share his side of the story! Ivan, how have you been since your last interview with Doujins two years ago?
Ivan Aedler: Hello there! Glad to be here. Well, I was working in another city, rushing towards Java projects, while discovering new games in my free time, so I could get new ideas to put in my games.
Yung: That sounds interesting, what have you been working on lately?
Ivan Aedler: As about games, I was just playing freeware ones, as I've made a kind of pause in development. I have two running projects, PUT and Wonderful Sonja (that one was still in the script phase as Soren, a friend of mine, convinced me to start using Unity).
Yung: Speaking of PUT, how did you feel when Nintendo, a company whose games you've enjoyed, gave that DMCA notice?
Ivan Aedler: Well, actually I was very surprised, as my friend rushed to tell me last Saturday night out of nowhere. Hours later, I was kind of thinking about the case better and I’d get frustrated and sad, with the feeling that all the memories I had with Nintendo (e.g. buying games, inviting friends, using Mario costumes in parties) and the love I had for the characters, so much I had the intention to make a freeware parody (as there are thousands of others in the globe) from scratch (with vector graphics, a very incredible way to make non pixelated graphics by using math), as close a possible to the real characters, only to just to get a big “NO”. A game made with love and perseverance, for free, in order to entertain adult people, some of them also Nintendo fans who owned Zelda and Pokemon.
Yung: Did you feel you were unfairly targeted by Nintendo considering the sheer amount of porn parodies of their characters available online?
Ivan Aedler: It's surely unfair. I've seen so many games featuring Mario characters, many of them are now known, some are adult themed games, others are for everyone. I've known people that started to like Mario games after playing a freeware parody featuring new levels of Super Mario Bros (I dont remember the real name as there are so many versions). I am sure that those people who coded small demos and games featuring known characters did them because they loved the character and the world it lives in. Not only Mario but Sonic and other franchise that entices many people since our childhood. I just can't explain. It's like a classical music. Something that make us prefer peace, make us prefer playing games and be safe, than to risk our lives outside.
PUT level concept art
Yung: Do you feel they're preparing to give other independent creators the same treatment?
Ivan Aedler: hope they reconsider before DMCAing everything, as they might be just shooting at their own foot, as people start to prefer the character in their future gameplay acquisitions. As those parody games could never beat a real team of programmers hired by Nintendo, for example, people will end up buying games from Nintendo directly. Freeware parody games are made by fans in order to fantasize about a given theme (in PUT it's towards hentai, an adult theme). With all the respect and limitations, like a warning saying its a 18 game and if you feel offended, don't play the game, as well as the notice the names used are copyrighted.
So, I really can't see anything other than parody games in fact helping the owner to get more market share, not the contrary, maintaining the fair use policy.
Mid-development screen of PUT
Yung: I agree completely! Did you ever expect you'd be dealing with legal problems when you first started working on games? Did you plan for something like this?
Ivan Aedler: Sincerely, I never expected it. As I am a gamer myself, a common person. Since I've seen many demos and games featuring Mario back in 2010, I played them, studied about them, and decided to make my own parody version, so gamers like me could enjoy a 'yet another' parody game, with different feelings, plots, and bugs (yes bugs lol). All those games have bugs, big ones. But whatever, by playing original games, I got addicted to play even more games (where parodies ended up filling this gap), which, in turn, made me want to play more games from the owner (Mario Sunshine was one of the later games I've played after Super Mario RPG). Each one has its own feeling, that made me get creativity and then reproduce part of it (by using unique scripts), so the parody game could be different, with even some references (how do you call them?) like having Tux (a Linux penguin) in the bed (like an Easter egg).
Concept art of Wonderful Sonja
Yung: I see what you mean, there's something special about playing a parody game knowing that the creator is also a fan of the original work
How does it feel to see that the result of almost a decade's worth of your hard work is no longer available for people to download?
Ivan Aedler: I feel somewhat powerless, it's like big humans hating small humans, like “I don’t like you, I hate you, I'll bash you, go away!” without knowing the reasons a common person created this content. I wasn't planning to cope with the 'outcomes' of a possible DMCA because, to begin with, I was 'addicted' with a game that had potential. It was really made from demo animations just to fulfil a dream of making a game with fable creatures back in the 80's. For sure I could be worried if I made profit by selling copyrighted games, Mario toys and else, but the thing is: I haven’t! That was never the intention. I did it all for free. Just because I loved to do it.
I am in contact with respectful organisations like Transformative Works and EFF so they could guide me somehow, in order to analyze the game, for example, to check every nook and cranny. If something really needs to be changed, I will comply to it. I noticed Github and other sites offer a count notice, but this opens a can of worms, as I'll be 'alone' defending the game, with certain public info exposed unnecessarily, so a lawyer interested in the case and who could do it for free (preferable) would be very welcome, so he or she could analyze the case and file up a counter notice in my behalf. Then, PUT might survive as a potential example of a huge creative game. The idea here is not to “compete with” or offend Nintendo, on the contrary. I hope organizations could see the real intentions of this game, a transformative work made with an outdated limited engine (Flash), just intended to be played on restricted free websites, giving gameplay to adults, while retaining discretion (the game is not for everyone), featuring characters we love so much.
Yung: Since the DMCA, did you ever feel that all that work was for nothing? (I hope not!)
Ivan Aedler: No, not at all! I don't see like that. Actually, making parody games and demos was more as a hobby and a challenge for me. I've learnt how to code, I discovered Mario franchise had other games I could buy (I am remembering another one I was going to play but I prefer to let this bad time pass by first. The name is Mario Sunshine, one that I haven’t time to pass the first area just yet).
Yung: That's good to hear! It always helps to keep a positive attitude.
Ivan Aedler: Well, being a gamer myself helps a lot! The more we play games, the more we get creative and relaxed.
Yung: I can relate to that! So how does it feel seeing mainstream sites like Polygon talk about your work?
Ivan Aedler: I've never expected it! It’s just “WOW!” I just can't explain. I am kind of shy, a single person who is just a dreamer, an adult that still feels young and full of creativity. But just a common man that got enticed by games in general. Sure, the news was about DMCA, but I've felt more of a 'God, my game, once just a buggy demo, without any plan, reached so many people, perhaps more than I could cope with'. It was a surprise.
Ivan uses Notepad++ to code PUT
Yung: I imagine it must feel pretty surreal. I've seen a few comments under those articles from people likening you to another indie developer who spent a long time working on a project: YandereDev. Would you say that's a fair comparison?
Ivan Aedler: Hmmm....I think so. Interestingly enough, I also like RPG MAKER games, I once planned making one (a unique game, not a parody) as I've learnt about DAZ models (I even used Blender in some renders). But I am not interested, perhaps due to a lack of time (job, family, etc). But I've surely played many of freeware RPGs. A thing that I feel sad for YandereDev is his large amount of prototypes (he might never finish them) and the way people didn’t value his works and dedication, so he ended up making unique games on his own. If it were me, I would try to give value to each project (not letting it go incomplete). PUT, being accepted or not, made me even more interested of making unique games, with the same enthusiasm I've had for PUT.
Yung: I can respect that! Do you think the DMCA will affect your Patreon, or even your career from this point on?
Ivan Aedler: I don't know and I don't care. That’s because I make games for free. For example, while other developers (with smaller games than mine) were getting $2000 of more as donations, I was getting $150 average. I consider tips (even a .0001 one) as a “thank you, you are special” rather than “I know you need money.” And this makes me remember to say: if you're a developer, please don't just expect money, even from small donations. Create it with love. By standing up in the morning, thank your God for the day, have a nice jog or another exercise, then find time to create. Do it as a hobby. Preserve your main job. If you get really famous and you can be supported, you can leave your job. But keep creating like you're loving someone. Do it with your heart. Like a special painting. The more you work by using your heart, the more special and immortal it will become, even using outdated code and graphics.
Coding can be hard work, but it all pays off in the end
Yung: Man, I love your attitude about your work! What’s next for you? Do you have any plans to start work on a new, original project? What about the future of PUT?
Ivan Aedler: Well, while still coding PUT back in 2017, a friend of mine suggested an adult game platformer also featuring ENF (Embarrassed nude female, a style that I love so much), that could resemble Wonderful Pink (as I loved this game). As I did with PUT, I want to create everything from scratch. But this time, it will be an unique game, with another body, other characters, another plot, and other places and environments. Even if the owner said: 'hey you can remake it, it's all yours!', I would say 'No thanks, please let me create my unique game, but I'll credit you for sure as I love it'.
I want to make my character do 'more' than just running, covering herself, and attacking (I am not talking only about adult scenes but everything else, including gravity checks, tons of levels and other collisions) to make the game more enjoyable (and huge). At least it's how I like games now. And with shapes (SVG)! Albeit I like pixelated games (I came from Wolf3d and Doom era, and I've played Broforce recently), I became enticed by the possibility of zooming in a SVG body, or a vehicle, over and over, without them being pixelated.
At first, I wanted to code my new project in Adobe Flash because I kind of mastered its usage, but Flash may die (THAT makes me sad) so I may start coding in Unity instead. So yes, I am enthusiastic to keep going on. I admit that I might still code some amateur parody demos at home, but they may never be a full game like PUT until I am assured the owner doesn't bother with it!
Yung: Great to see how motivated you are going forward! So that should be pretty much everything, unless there are any last words you'd like to share.
Ivan Aedler: I do. Just a quote that I read recently that touched me:
“Great things happen to those who don't stop believing, trying, learning, and being grateful.”
― Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart
Thanks again to Ivan Aedler for speaking to us at Doujins! Make sure to visit the following links for updates and to check out his other work:
https://www.patreon.com/aef22
https://legendofkrystal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2265&cache=1
